Steve Jobs Interview - 7/22/1991 - On 10 Years of the Personal Computer

1991-07-2221:40English

Transcript

Machine transcript in the original language. It may contain errors. Select a timestamp to play that moment.

Interesting you mentioned Dell, we're interviewing Michael tomorrow.
Good.
One of my associates is down in Austin.
Did you see the time?
He went into R&D driving up his car.
So he's going to be nipping at his heels.
So tell me when you're ready and I can finish.
Yeah, we're ready.
The whole premise for Apple's existence is to come up with better products, highly differentiated better products, that then the third-party software developers can develop new and exciting and different applications on that they can't develop on other types of personal computers.
And if Apple gives that away by giving away their future system software, then I'm not sure that the market needs Apple.
So my whole question in this is, what is Apple's differentiation if this is successful?
And if it's not successful, what is Apple's innovation which is going to propel it through the 90s like Macintosh did through the 80s?
I'm not sure.
I'm sure that there are a bunch of bright people there, and I'm sure they have some good ideas.
They stopped sending me their management reports a while ago.
So, well, we've already covered some of the things that we can do with PCs today that we didn't do.
But if we were to look ahead, what do you think that we're going to be doing with personal computers?
And, I mean, from that, you know, your machines here are somewhere between a workstation and a personal computer.
what do you think that we'll be able to do with this field called personal computing
where you are in control that we can't do today?
Well, what's happening right now with our industry is it's bifurcating.
All current generation personal computers, all IBM PCs,
most of the current Macintoshes are all going to go portable.
They're all going to be smaller, all portable.
Within two, three years, everything will be portable.
And yet, customers are also demanding, at the same time, more power.
And more power falls into three or four areas.
People want large color screens that they can put photographs on.
Ask anyone in the upper part of desktop publishing, as an example.
People want motion video.
People want to be networked with very high-speed networking, at least Ethernet speeds.
And people want to be sending all of this rich media around the network.
Unfortunately, this second class of product cannot be made portable.
So what I see is I see our industry bifurcating where the current generation of products are going to be portable
and the next generation of products, these very powerful, highly networked color machines, are going to be desktop machines.
And that's where I think we're going.
Now, what is going to be the new breakthrough that causes the next spurt of growth in our industry?
Just like spreadsheets did in the early 80s, desktop publishing did in the late 80s.
and again I come back to interpersonal computing.
I think personal computing, which we mastered in the 80s,
its mission was to improve individual productivity and at best creativity
and with over 50 million personal computers shipped in the 80s, it worked.
The next thing for the 90s, though, needs to be more.
Improving individual productivity isn't enough anymore.
The real competitive advantage in the 90s is going to come
from improving group productivity and collaboration.
improving group productivity.
And that is going to be achieved through interpersonal computing,
using the same desktop tool that revolutionized analysis and planning with spreadsheets,
that revolutionized publishing with desktop publishing,
using those same tools to revolutionize human-to-human communication,
collaboration, and group productivity.
And I think that is going to be the third revolution of the desktop computer in the first half of the 90s.
Are you a fan of Lotus Notes?
I think we're about three or four years ahead of that kind of thing with Nex now.
That's why a lot of people are buying our stuff.
We have something that's pretty remarkable.
Lotus Notes is okay, but it starts off with a PC,
so you have a lot of inherent limitations.
Did you have any idea early on, say early 70s,
even late 70s, early 80s,
that the PC was going to have such a dramatic impact
on the entire structure of the computer industry?
Sure.
Again, what's hard to remember is that by 1979,
when we were at Apple,
we were already shipping more computers measured in units
than IBM was. Remember IBM was only shipping big mainframes.
and a few attempts at mini computers.
We were already shipping more computers in unit volume in 1979 than IBM was.
So the thought occurred to us, certainly by then,
that this was going to have a staggering effect because of the unit volume.
If we're going to come back to you in five years for the 15th anniversary of the PC,
what among the companies that are out there now do you think may well go away?
and which amongst them that are somewhere in the also-ran pack do you think may be running up front?
Besides next.
Let me correct, I think, a mistaken impression that you articulated.
I don't think this is the 10th anniversary of the PC.
I think it's the 15th anniversary of the PC or maybe the 14th
because the first modern PC as we know it appeared in 1977,
and it was the Apple II.
And the Apple II sold five or six million units
until it was retired.
And IBM entered the PC business with their products,
which turned out to have a very large effect.
But nonetheless, the course had already
been plotted in 1981.
So I think it's the 10th anniversary of IBM's entrance
into the PC market.
Five years from now, let me answer a broader question
than that, and I'll come back to that one.
OK.
At the risk of wasting some of your videotape.
That's all right.
The tape is cheap.
There is a constant tension in our industry
between standards and innovation.
And I think it's a healthy tension.
Standards are very good because they give everybody
a baseline.
They give everybody a low-cost economic vehicle.
But left to themselves, people that usually are the standard bearers don't have any incentive to move forward.
And ultimately, customers lose.
And that's the role of the companies that innovate.
Companies that innovate use as many of the standards as they can, but then leap up from them
and try to provide new opportunities through innovation,
with a certain amount of risk associated because they're not part of the standard.
And some of them succeed very wildly.
Macintosh, as an example, was a real step.
It was a real revolution versus just an evolution.
As where most of the things in the PC world have been evolutionary.
286, the 386, the 486.
Excuse me.
Sometimes.
And it's this tension between the evolution and the revolution
that I think keeps our industry moving forward.
We've seen seven years after Macintosh, finally the IBM world is getting some of the graphical user interface that was available in 1984 with the Macintosh.
So this evolution-revolution tension, I think, is extremely important to keep on going in the future.
And the revolutionaries that manage to establish a critical mass, get up to a certain size before the evolutionary people catch up, they survive and prosper.
Those that don't get absorbed into the evolutionary path.

Transcript

Machine transcript in the original language. It may contain errors. Select a timestamp to play that moment.

Interesting you mentioned Dell, we're interviewing Michael tomorrow.

Good.

One of my associates is down in Austin.

Did you see the time?

He went into R&D driving up his car.

So he's going to be nipping at his heels.

So tell me when you're ready and I can finish.

Yeah, we're ready.

The whole premise for Apple's existence is to come up with better products, highly differentiated better products, that then the third-party software developers can develop new and exciting and different applications on that they can't develop on other types of personal computers.

And if Apple gives that away by giving away their future system software, then I'm not sure that the market needs Apple.

So my whole question in this is, what is Apple's differentiation if this is successful?

And if it's not successful, what is Apple's innovation which is going to propel it through the 90s like Macintosh did through the 80s?

I'm not sure.

I'm sure that there are a bunch of bright people there, and I'm sure they have some good ideas.

They stopped sending me their management reports a while ago.

So, well, we've already covered some of the things that we can do with PCs today that we didn't do.

But if we were to look ahead, what do you think that we're going to be doing with personal computers?

And, I mean, from that, you know, your machines here are somewhere between a workstation and a personal computer.

what do you think that we'll be able to do with this field called personal computing

where you are in control that we can't do today?

Well, what's happening right now with our industry is it's bifurcating.

All current generation personal computers, all IBM PCs,

most of the current Macintoshes are all going to go portable.

They're all going to be smaller, all portable.

Within two, three years, everything will be portable.

And yet, customers are also demanding, at the same time, more power.

And more power falls into three or four areas.

People want large color screens that they can put photographs on.

Ask anyone in the upper part of desktop publishing, as an example.

People want motion video.

People want to be networked with very high-speed networking, at least Ethernet speeds.

And people want to be sending all of this rich media around the network.

Unfortunately, this second class of product cannot be made portable.

So what I see is I see our industry bifurcating where the current generation of products are going to be portable

and the next generation of products, these very powerful, highly networked color machines, are going to be desktop machines.

And that's where I think we're going.

Now, what is going to be the new breakthrough that causes the next spurt of growth in our industry?

Just like spreadsheets did in the early 80s, desktop publishing did in the late 80s.

and again I come back to interpersonal computing.

I think personal computing, which we mastered in the 80s,

its mission was to improve individual productivity and at best creativity

and with over 50 million personal computers shipped in the 80s, it worked.

The next thing for the 90s, though, needs to be more.

Improving individual productivity isn't enough anymore.

The real competitive advantage in the 90s is going to come

from improving group productivity and collaboration.

improving group productivity.

And that is going to be achieved through interpersonal computing,

using the same desktop tool that revolutionized analysis and planning with spreadsheets,

that revolutionized publishing with desktop publishing,

using those same tools to revolutionize human-to-human communication,

collaboration, and group productivity.

And I think that is going to be the third revolution of the desktop computer in the first half of the 90s.

Are you a fan of Lotus Notes?

I think we're about three or four years ahead of that kind of thing with Nex now.

That's why a lot of people are buying our stuff.

We have something that's pretty remarkable.

Lotus Notes is okay, but it starts off with a PC,

so you have a lot of inherent limitations.

Did you have any idea early on, say early 70s,

even late 70s, early 80s,

that the PC was going to have such a dramatic impact

on the entire structure of the computer industry?

Sure.

Again, what's hard to remember is that by 1979,

when we were at Apple,

we were already shipping more computers measured in units

than IBM was. Remember IBM was only shipping big mainframes.

and a few attempts at mini computers.

We were already shipping more computers in unit volume in 1979 than IBM was.

So the thought occurred to us, certainly by then,

that this was going to have a staggering effect because of the unit volume.

If we're going to come back to you in five years for the 15th anniversary of the PC,

what among the companies that are out there now do you think may well go away?

and which amongst them that are somewhere in the also-ran pack do you think may be running up front?

Besides next.

Let me correct, I think, a mistaken impression that you articulated.

I don't think this is the 10th anniversary of the PC.

I think it's the 15th anniversary of the PC or maybe the 14th

because the first modern PC as we know it appeared in 1977,

and it was the Apple II.

And the Apple II sold five or six million units

until it was retired.

And IBM entered the PC business with their products,

which turned out to have a very large effect.

But nonetheless, the course had already

been plotted in 1981.

So I think it's the 10th anniversary of IBM's entrance

into the PC market.

Five years from now, let me answer a broader question

than that, and I'll come back to that one.

OK.

At the risk of wasting some of your videotape.

That's all right.

The tape is cheap.

There is a constant tension in our industry

between standards and innovation.

And I think it's a healthy tension.

Standards are very good because they give everybody

a baseline.

They give everybody a low-cost economic vehicle.

But left to themselves, people that usually are the standard bearers don't have any incentive to move forward.

And ultimately, customers lose.

And that's the role of the companies that innovate.

Companies that innovate use as many of the standards as they can, but then leap up from them

and try to provide new opportunities through innovation,

with a certain amount of risk associated because they're not part of the standard.

And some of them succeed very wildly.

Macintosh, as an example, was a real step.

It was a real revolution versus just an evolution.

As where most of the things in the PC world have been evolutionary.

286, the 386, the 486.

Excuse me.

Sometimes.

And it's this tension between the evolution and the revolution

that I think keeps our industry moving forward.

We've seen seven years after Macintosh, finally the IBM world is getting some of the graphical user interface that was available in 1984 with the Macintosh.

So this evolution-revolution tension, I think, is extremely important to keep on going in the future.

And the revolutionaries that manage to establish a critical mass, get up to a certain size before the evolutionary people catch up, they survive and prosper.

Those that don't get absorbed into the evolutionary path.